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#1 Horatio252

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 04:54 PM

A few months ago there was a dispute about the accuracy of the content of an article and in defending the information I included I cited my source, but that citation did not appear in the article itself. Alahmnat encouraged me to cite my sources in the article in the future. But, after clarifying that we don't currently have standards on citations and that we should get some, the idea lost momentum. Well, I am back with momentum, and the slew of article creations and edits makes establishing a protocol important and urgent.

The guidelines need to be simple and effective. I don't know if DPWR can do linked footnotes like wikipedia, so I won't propose them. I freely admit to coming from an APA perspective. Feedback is welcome, especially the constructive kind. The goal is not to add more work to article creation, but help everyone know where information is coming from.


Here is what I propose:

we use both an in-text and an endnote system. In-text citations will appear in parenthesis, consisting of a minimum if information. Endnotes will be designed to allow readers to find the source easily without being labor intensive for the author. I am thinking the the endnotes will just have the title "Sources" and then the sources listed in a column underneath that. Articles that draw solely from a single source can have that information included in the text ("Channelwood is an Age that only appears in Myst and RealMyst, and so we know of it only from those sources.) or more simply, the source can just be listed in the endnotes.

Our sources will come primarily from four kinds of places:

Our direct experiences in the cavern or the games - Here you may use only the title of the game or its acronym in the in-text citation, i.e. (RIVEN). For the sake of uniformity there will still be an endnotes section, but it will consist only of the game title. A distinction will need to maintained between URU:ABM, URU:CC, MOUL, and MORE. Actual access dates will almost always be appropriate for MOUL and MORE content, but need only appear in the endnotes.

MOUL. October 3, 2007.


The novels - very similar to cavern and in-game experiences. In-text citations can consist of only the title of the book or its acronym i.e. (BOA). The endnote can be simply the full title of the book, no author, no year, no publisher.

Book of Atrus.


Websites within the Myst/URU community (I will cover forum posts as a different type of source next) - this where things get more interesting. In-text citations should consist of both the website, and the title of the sub page, i.e. (Guild of Messengers, "Guild of Archivists").

The endnote may or may not include an author depending on the source. Some information comes from an organization or a website as a whole and some comes from an individual on a website. Here you will need to use common sense to determine which is occurring in your source. If you determine that there is not a specific author, then your citation will start with the title of the article/webpage. Next should come the title of the article or specific webpage. After that should come the title for the overall website. The posting date or access date should come next. Finally the URL should be provided. For the reference list the following format will be used:

Author. "Title of article or webpage". Website title. date. <URL>
"Title of article or webpage". Website title. date. <URL>

"Guild of Archivists". Guild of Messengers. July 7, 2008. http://messengers.si...hp?thisItem=272


Forum posts - similar to website sources, but with an emphasis on the date. The following format for in-text citations will be used (author, date of post) i.e. (Chogun, July 2, 2008) . For the reference list the following format will be used:

author. date of post. "Title of thread". Website or board. URL

Chogun. July 2, 2008. "MORE - letter to MystOnline fans". MOUL Forums. http://www.mystonlin...pic.php?t=15804



Okay, that is what I am thinking about citation formats. Let me know what you are thinking. Once we are all happy with a set of citation guidelines we can start thinking about implementation, so hold your thoughts on that topic.

Horatio
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#2 Fallstar

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:13 PM

As far as I know, there's an additional source of information, RAWA (and/or others at Cyan). Alahmnat can confirm this, I'm just going off memory.
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#3 Alahmnat

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 08:14 PM

I think RAWA's comments would fall under the guidelines for a forum post...

One other source to keep in mind is email. In the past, RAWA has posted quite a lot of information on The Riven Lyst, and later on The Lyst. Historically, those emails were re-posted online on Kehrin's now-defunct D'ni Desk Reference site. Some of them (not sure off the top of my head how many) have also been posted in the Archive under the "Official Communications" tag. In the event that an email needs to be referenced, I think the best course of action would be to first post the full text of the email from the person in question (provided that such action is permissible... if it was emailed to you privately, get permission from the author before posting the whole thing!) and using a format pretty much identical to that of the forum posts, for example (making up the info here):

RAWA. Sometime Long Ago. "IT'S A TRAP! (not)". The Riven Lyst. (link to re-posted email in the Archive or other online location)

If an email isn't available for public re-posting, but contains relevant information nonetheless, and you have permission to release that information (I can't think of a situation where this would actually apply at the moment, but I'm trying to cover all bases), I'd cite the reference as follows:

RAWA. Date. "Top Secret Info!". Personal Email.
QUOTE
as much material as you're allowed to publicly cite from the email for context.


Alternatively, you could use the pad tag instead of the quote tag (the goal being to indicate somehow that the block of text "belongs" to this reference):

RAWA. Date. "Top Secret Info!". Personal Email.
as much material as you're allowed to publicly cite from the email for context.


Obviously, in cases where emails are concerned, being able to publicly post the text of the message is far preferred over not having a public record for information that's supposed to be reliable, but we'll have to take those occurrences as we go.

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#4 Horatio252

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 10:24 PM

I like the personal communication guidelines. Citing it posted on a forum somewhere is preferable to citing the e-mail itself. One other thing that needs to be in the endnote is who the e-mail was sent to since an article can have multiple authors and none of them are necessarily the recipient of the e-mail. In this light, I recommend that the format be amended to this:

RAWA. Date. "Top Secret Info!". Personal Email to Alahmnat.
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#5 Horatio252

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 08:02 AM

Also, for primary sources (games and books), tag your articles with the source (these tags already exist). This seems to be common practice, but I wanted to mention it.
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#6 Horatio252

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 08:02 AM

Well, as no one has disagreed with these citation guidelines, perhaps we should begin to discuss implementation. The first question is very simple: Do we edit old articles or just patrol new articles? I am all for editing old articles, if enough people will help out. Even if all we do is tag primary source articles and identify articles that really do need to provide their sources that would be a major step.
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#7 BladeLakem

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Posted 13 July 2008 - 12:46 PM

A tag like used for stubs to indicate that it needs to be updated for sources would be a good start, I'd think.

#8 Alahmnat

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Posted 14 July 2008 - 11:52 AM

I've plowed through all of the tags above People on the All Tags list and added primary source tags to all of the entries in those sections. The thing to be careful of is in editing an entry, since it seems that the code to re-select the tags that have already been applied is glitchy (unsurprising, seeing as how I wrote it tongue.gif), and will forget tags that have already been applied. I have a few other things to discuss regarding the People articles (which I'll put in a separate topic), but aside from that, I don't think plugging through the rest of the entries already in the Archive will be that huge of a project. I'll need to touch anything with an attachment in it due to an incomplete/botched attachment conversion (again, kudos to me), but we could put together a new tag for "broken attachment" that I could sort through as needed, so that we can get the rest of the process out of the way. When it comes to reviewing new articles, you can subscribe to the Archive's RSS feed to be updated when a new entry is submitted, or when an existing entry is edited... this is how I've managed to stay on top of new additions since the Archive was converted to the Wiki-type format.

As far as endnotes are concerned, unfortunately the Archive doesn't have anything as wicked awesome as Wikipedia's citation notation, which will auto-generate an endnote, with an anchor link to the reference and another back up to the citation point. If we want to do something similar, we'll have to do it manually, though I may be able to put together a couple of BBCode tags to help in the process.

I have a few related topics to start on Archive organization... I'll try to get them posted by the end of the day.

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#9 Horatio252

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 07:57 PM

So I got through some of the locations and tagged their sources (all the way ot Katha Island under "D'ni cavern locations").

I encountered a reference to a king journal, and realized that we have no citation standards for that. I think it would be best if we listed the specific king journal, with a cross link to that Journal here in the Archive. Here is what I propose:

Sources:
Journal of [article title = "King Adesh"] King Adesh [/article]
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#10 BladeLakem

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Posted 15 July 2008 - 10:47 PM

Maybe specify it's a DRC notebook?

DRC Journal, [article title = "King Adesh"] King Adesh [/article]

(Do we need to specify its location?)

Also, I just noted that we have two articles for Adesh: Adesh, King and King Adesh. Do we need two? If one is the person and one is the notebook, maybe the name should be "King Adesh Notebook"?


#11 Horatio252

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 06:41 AM

I like "Notebook" or "Research" more than "Journal" (I know, I was calling them journals in my last post)

DRC Research. [article title = "King Adesh Notebook"] King Adesh Notebook [/article]

As far as location, we should not need that in the citation as that should be specified in the article for that notebook ( the "King Adesh Notebook" says at the top "Location: Hall of Kings").



Good catch on the two articles. There seem to be two articles for every king, one under "People" listed "____, King" and another under "DRC Research" listed "King _____". Both articles are mainly copies of the notebook for that king, there are few difference except in the heading information. Oddly, this seems to be intentional, because if you look at the Demath articles, for example, they were created within a half hour of each other by Alahmnat.

Here is my recommendation: We do as BladeLakem suggests and rename the articles under "DRC Research" "King ___ Notebook". Then we make the article under the "People" tag consist of a link to the "DRC Research" article as well as any other information we have that is not in that notebook.


(I seem to be creating projects faster than I can complete them caffeine.gif )

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#12 Alahmnat

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 09:51 AM

The duplicate King entries are (well, were) intentional. When they were added to the Archive, there was a strict category-based system in place built directly on top of a collection of forums, and no terribly easy way to cross-link things (these were early days) without spawning a dozen new windows as you navigated through various articles. With the new tagging system and better controls, it's not nearly as important to have both articles be so full-featured. This is one of those things I wanted to discuss that I haven't gotten around to posting just yet, actually wink.gif.

Horatio, I like your suggestion for managing the DRC Research content. While the research notebooks have typically been titled here with the text written/typed on the cover of the booklet, I think appending "notebook" at least to the articles on the Kings would help alleviate some confusion while searching, and cross-linking to them from the People entries would cut down on the duplicate content and potential for spelling/transcription errors.

One last point, as pertains to citations (and I hope this won't be taken too poorly since I just checked my RSS feed and found 33 newly-updated articles in my inbox): I'd prefer if sources were listed under a separate header (using the [h = "n"] tag) so that they're easy to pick out of an article regardless of how many paragraphs and headers are already there. Despite the potential for semantics violation, headers should start with h="1" and work up (down?) from there. The HTML that these tags generate can be altered programatically, so if it comes to it, I can alter the code to spit out the next <hn> tag down (so h="1" would generate an <h2> tag). I'll go into more depth on this and a few other points in a new topic; my point was that sources should be cited under a header like this:
CODE
[h="1"]Sources[/h]

It's just easier to find them that way smile.gif.

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#13 Horatio252

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 11:23 AM

okay, most of my slew of source tagging, was just tagging. It's just the DRC project website pages that I will have to go over again and give the "source" part a header. I won't able to do it tonight, but I can do it Thurs night if no one gets to it first.

oh, and you want the source header to be n+1 any other header in the article(i.e. if an article is using h=1 and h=2 the source should be under an h=3 header)?

oh, I skipped source tagging "people" because you indicated that you had more comments on "people".
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#14 Alahmnat

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Posted 16 July 2008 - 12:05 PM

Headers act just like HTML <h> tags... 1 is the top-most level, 2 is the level beneath that, and so on, nested like a table of contents. The Source header should be h="1", regardless of any other headers you've used. A good article to look at for an example of how to use headers in an entry would be the one on D'ni Religion (that's the second time I've referenced that one today, heh).

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